that we have not seen -- well no former pope has ever resigned and been driven out of vatican city. it was 600 years ago the last time that someone voluntarily gave this up position and so much has been said about this choice. initially there was even criticism that, you know, a pope should not step down, this pope has shown what many regard as tremendous humility in his decision to resort to prayer and to meditation, and to go up to the mountain, as he says, god has called him to do, to spend the rest of his life in contemplation and in prayer, and there he goes, bill. bill: there is a schedule that we've been given and they are sticking to the minute. he will now depart by way of helicopter, and then it's 5:00 in the afternoon in italy, and around 2:00 our time, once he is south of rome, the doors of the palat pa palatso will close and

the guards go off-duty because their service protect being the head of the catholic church will be over, at least for the time being. this is going to play out now and over the next three hours as we watch the images come in. martha: there are few places more beautiful than vatican city in the sunlight. 5:00 in the evening over this place is absolutely spectacular at this point. what a simple sort of action to watch him walk out of vatican into the car and have monumental implications for him and the future of the catholic church as well. bill: father morris referred to this. in the speech he gave earlier today at one point he said, among you is also the future pope whom i promise my unconditional refe reverence and obedience. now he will remain hidden from the world. martha: remarkable. thanks for being with us, everybody. we will see you right back here

now. "happening now" carries on this coverage of the pope as he leaves the vatican today. jon: bill and martha, thank you. pope benedict the xvi officially resigning today. it's about three hours away. good morning i'm jon scott. jenna: hi, everybody i'm jenna lee live in our admonition's capitol today witnessing history right now along with you. we are glad that you're with us. the pontiff leading the vatican for the last time as pope today. he's about to fly by helicopter to cas castle began r-frplt he will bless the well wishers gathering there awaiting his arrival. the pope's retirement taking effect in a few hours. before leaving the vatican he delivered his tphaoeupbl greetings to the cardinals urging them to work in unity and promising unconditional reverence and obedience to his successor. all of this very new to everyone. the last time a pope resigned

1415, jon. when we say we are actually witnessing history, a history that few have experienced before, the facts all point to that. jon: nobody has ever seen, nobody alive now has seen what we are seeing now, the resignation of a pope. it is a historic day at the vatican and really for the one billion catholics all around the world. our amy kellogg is watching this history be made along with father jonathan morris, both are in rome. father morris let me begin with you. this is a man you worked with prior to his becoming pope, he was cardinal ra ratzinger. tell us your thoughts now that he is stepping down. >> my thoughts go back to a time when i brought some college students, i used to do it every year. the last time i brought a group of college students to him to ask him questions, kind of students with an academic. young people with a cardinal with a prince of the church. i went up to him and said, your

immanence would you like me to give you the questions ahead of time that the students want to ask? and he looked at me kind of like, oh, no, son, don't worry, i don't need that type of preparation, but thank you very much. and then he spent the next hour with these young people, and he was so at home in that environment. but then very shortly afterwards he was put on to the world stage and he was given a tough hand of cards, beginning with the sexual abuse scandal that was ripe at the time in 2005, but then many other struggles within the church, and globally as well. he went to regensberg and gave that talk about islam and the relationship with natural law and moral truth and he got so much backlash, people even died over it. one thing after another, and he says that weighed on him. and the fact that he's now going off into the sunset not to give up, but rather as he said to serve the church in a different way, it's moving for me, as someone who knew him, not as a best friend but certainly as one

who admired him and had the honor of spending time with him. jon: let's watch as the pope boards the papal helicopter, presumably for the last time and heads to castle gandolfo the pope's summer residence a few miles from rome. you can see the banners of the well wishers there. the pope has spent the previously eight summers at castle began r-frplt it will be a temporary residence for him for the next few months while a residence that is being prepared for him in the vatican is under renovations.

one presumes that 600 years ago the last time a pope resigned it took probably months, years, for the word to get around the world. this is being beamed around the world instantaneously on television and via the internet. 5:04pm in vatican city, as they will fire up the turbin and kronk those rote tars to carry the pontiff to castle gandolfo a few miles away. a little less than three hours from now his resignation as pope officially becomes -- well becomes enforceable. amy kellogg again is watching as we see the rote tars beginning trotars beginning to turn. amy what is the reaction, it was

such a shock when this pope announced he would be resigning office rather than dying in office. have the people there in rome and the vatican begun to process this? >> it's been an emotional roller coaster from what i can glean, jon. i think a lot of people were shocked, a lot of people felt this isn't an ordinary job u don't retire from the paper pa papacy. as people follow pope benedict the xvi possibly closer than ever before i think they've come to appreciate a great humility in someone who is clearly not seek being out the limelight who probably feels that someone else could do the job better with more vigor right now, who has possibly been deeply wounded by the scandals and troubles that have been in the catholic church and who didn't really want this job in the first place, jon. i was reading an interview with him that was done somewhere towards the beginning of his

pontificate when he said he asked the lord, what have you done to me? i can't do this. i need your help. he had wanted to retire at that point. and yesterday at his last public audience he said that he never felt alone, though there had been ups and downs and there had been times when he felt that god was sleeping, but had never abandoned him. so, i think it has been a difficult road for a very sensitive machine, it turns out. in speaking to a lot of the brass of the catholic church over the last new days i've understood that pope benedict the xvi, joseph ratzinger, soon to be pope emeritus is incredibly sensitive and kurt tee just an courteous. people have come to appreciate and feel for him maybe more than they had during the years of his

pontificate, jon. jon: as the helicopter prepares to liftoff let's listen to the peeling of the church bells as this pope prepares to say goodbye. [bells ringing ]

jon: what a view, when the last pope resigned 600 years ago he didn't depart by helicopter as bill herm pointed out. we have air to air shots covering every move of the current pope east spends his last couple of hours in office heading to a temporary retirement in castle gandolfo a few miles from rome and eventually back to the vatican at well a convent apartment that is being renovated for him now. jenna: the ride itself, the helicopter trip between the vatican and castle gandolfo is

supposed to take 15 minutes or so. what a trip it is, by the images we have of the land of rome, quite moving images whether you're watching it from this point of view or in side the helicopter as well. we have a senior fellow. steven white is from the catholic studies program at the ethics policy center. welcome to you both. you have an interesting vantage point on this as well. you've been to the community where castle gandolfo is. what can you tell us about where he is heading. >> it's a very small college perched on the rim of and i ancient sroe sroel cano, sroel cavolcano known for its white wine and porquitto. it has a beautiful view over the

lake and also towards ro*efplt you can look down own a clear day you can see the dome of st. peters tour erring over the city of rome and beyond that the mediterranean sea. it's a peaceful place, it's not a bad place to start your life away from the world. world. jenna: we hear it's larger than the vatican itself the place he'll be residing for the time being. >> the vatican itself isn't terribly big to begin with. there are beautiful gardens at the summer residence. there is a pool up there, i don't think he'll be using it this time of year. there was a pool installed by pope john the ii. sort of reluctantly. they said you need exercise. it's a nice place. it's not exactly a five-star luxury wh hotel but it's a beautiful place to be and i'm sure he'll be studying a life of pray threr i prayer there in a

peaceful setting. jenna: you mentioned the historic significance over the coliseum now, take a look at this shot. makes you think about the history not only of the city of rome but also the history of the church. what is the significance of this resignation? >> i think there are -- the fundamental issue here is that this is an old man who, like he said has grown tired an doesn't feel that he's coppable of keepincapable of keeping up with the ministry. it's easy to forget in this day and age with the modern medicine we have people tend to live longer, that goes for popes too. he's already one of the oldest men ever to be a pope. i think there has only been one pope in roughly 2,000 years that has lived past the age of 90. most bishops are required to resign by cannon law at the age of 75. as you problem below heard when

it comes to voting for the next pope no one over the age of 80 is allowed to vote. at 86 he's like you said, he's reached an age where he says he physically, and mentally and spiritually can't keep up with the rapid pace of being pope in this modern world. i think that by stepping down he's indicating that the office is bigger than him e. was given that office to serve the church and that office, the office of pope, bishop of rome exists to serve the church, to serve the mission of the church. the mission of the church is to spread the gospel, to preach christ to the world. i think that his resignation as we pointed out is dramatic and in many ways unprecedented. in 14, 15 the last time a pope row signed that was under duress. before that the last person to

resign was 1294 and he basically ended up being impressioned by his successor locked away in a tower somewhere, died of the damp something like that. this idea that i'm going to step away from the papacy, hasn't happened in hundreds of years but the way he's doing it is completely unprecedented. >> we'll refer to him as the pope, then he'll be called his holiness benedict. he said to love the church also means having the courage to make difficult decisions bearing always in mind the good of the church and not one's self. what do you make of this transition and the next chapter ahead for the church? >> absolutely. i think one of the last things that he said to the cardinals was, it's in service that we find our joy. and i think this decision undoubtedly had to be difficult for him, because he had to have known that he would have to endure another round of just media onslaught. he has so many critics and

they've just come right after him, and it was truly a great act of humility, what he's done, knowing what he'd have to endure, so i think that his entire papacy has been marked by humility. he didn't want the job in the first place. he was hoping to spend the last years of his life as a librarian working with books, studying, in prayer, and so even accepting the role was an act of humility and a act of service to the church, and then stepping down when he felt he could no longer humble man he was ands what a what he'll be remembered for. jenna: steven what do you think his league gas see will be as we reflect on that now and move ahead and wonder who will be the next hope. >> there are two aspects to it. first this precedent he's set nothing a way of stepping away from the papacy when you feel you can no longer fulfill. jenna: do you think that we'll

see more of this. >> i suspect. i hope it doesn't become a habitual thing. there is a lot to be said for -- as someone put it, i think -- a cardinal who is the secretary of pope john paul ii is now the archbishop of poland. they said, why didn't he resign when he was old in sick, he said, he continue come down off the cross. there is a lot to be said forbearing one's burden to the end. but i do think that it's been hundreds of years since the last pope resigned. i wouldn't be surprised if we saw it happen again in the next hundred years. his resignation i think in service of the church has actually said this is an act of humility. people talk about how can one give up such a big and important and powerful position, i think there is also another way that this is humble, it's not lost upon the pope that in stepping

down it may be perceived that this is an act of weakness or abandonment and i think that probably in many ways for this man, being sort of the kind, gentleman he is was probably more difficult for him than walking away from all the trappings of the papacy. jenna: your quick thoughts on the legacy he leaves behind. >> there are two things he'll be remembered for. one it's bringing the message of love. he surprised the world. here was a man who was known as god's rottweiler and his first papal encyleabe is god is love. he wrote three books about the life of jesus. i believe he will be remembered for that, bringing that message to the secular riced west. he will be remembered for reform. this is a man who took some of the difficult issues the church was facing by the horns, faced them in a way that was very

courageous, he apologized to the victims of the sexual abuse crisis. he met with victims which was something that had never happened before, and he's put mechanisms in place that has made the catholic church the safest place on earth for children and actually looked to as a model for how to deal with things like this. jenna: he certainly has been in this position during a time of great transition, jon, for the church and certainly a lot of different dynamics at play for whoever will be the next pope. jon, you could probably stare us through this stage, the pilot as you are, we see the helicopter slightly lore and maybe rising again. it appears that the journey to castle gandolfo may be soon coming to an end. jon: interesting to over fly the run race like that they've clearly closed off some of the air space. i wonder what is the significance of having the pope fly over what appears to be the rome airport. could be another outlying

airport, but that's what they have chosen to do. at any rate, he is on his way, again, to castle gandolfo, the summer residence of the pope, where he has spent about the last eight sum *ers. w summers. we understand we will be there for about the next eight months as his permanent residence inside the vatican is being repaired. let's go back to father jonathan morris. father morris we understand that most of the cardinals have already gathered in rome, they are to begin meeting tomorrow for several days of getting to know each other, and discussing the procedures ahead, and then the conclave that is going to elect a new pope is expected to begin when, march 7th? >> you know, jon it's not known. it's hard to believe those of us who are in this world of media will not actually know when the conclave will begin or when it will end, but we don't know. what we know is that the

cardinals will begin meeting on monday, this coming monday and it's one of their first orders of business will be to determine when the conclave starts. before the conclave starts they will have meetings what they call con congratulationses in which they are discussing the big issues of the church. but they are also informally getting together, having meals, talking to each other about one another, trying to find the right person for the job. now in these last few days it's been very quiet about the next pope. why? because just as when john paul ii was sick and dying nobody was talking about the next pope, but now we just saw the helicopter leave the vatican. that was pope benedict's way of saying, now i'm out of the picture, now you do your jobs. if you wer he were still in the vatican or behind the vatican walls in some other apartment that they would be a little bit cautious in talking about in straight talk what is needed for the church. that is about to begin. jon: the helicopter on its way

to castle gandolfo. we understand that the pope willee ph*erpblg, hwill emerge. he will make some statements or issue a greeting to the people of castle gandolfo, which is also the name of the village there. he will -- >> that's right. jon: from a window there in the quarters at the summer residence he will issue some kind of a greeting to the people of castle gandolfo. then at exactly 8:00pm, which is 2:00pm eastern time in this country, 11:00am on the west coast a bell will ring and a sergeant of the swiss guard will order the guard on-duty to leave his po*erbgs and a post and at that point the massive doors of the castle are going to swing shut and begin the period they call [speaking italian ] am i pronouncing that correctly, father morris? that's right. that is perfectly said, jon. i used to tell, i still do tell

visitors to rome who come during the summertime, don't go and wait and see the pope, john paul ii or pope benedict the xvi here in the vatican. go out to castle gandolfo. you'll be able to be in a very intimate setting. we'll see this little castle in the hills outside of rome with room for about 3 or 400 people in this inner square instead of 150,000 people here in st. peters square. and they will look up at this window and pope benedict the xvi for the last time will speak to the world. then he will go in, the guards will leave and he at 8:00pm will no longer be pope. jenna: as father jonathan was just speaking there our guests

on set steven white nodding along. steven as father jonathan was taking a little bit about castle gandolfo that seemed to very much resonate with you about the community that is going to be surrounding the pope and what one can learn from the catholic church from this one area of the world. >> it's interesting, you know, i think it was yesterday and the day before talking about the crowds that were coming to see him and the out pouring of love and the letters he received. the pope made several comments about in these days we've seen what the church ream i is, it's not sort of an organizational chart or a series of political structures. what the church is is a community of believers gathered around their love of god and jesus christ and that is something that is palpable. as father said the square at castle gandolfo is a much more intimate setting and a great place to be much closer up than surrounded by 150,000 people. >> as we watch the helicopter come in for landing here the

"associated press" has interesting color to what transpired over the last 20 minutes saying as pope benedict the xvi left the vatican for the last time one of his closes aides wept by his side as he bade farewell to the vatican. certainly there is a lot of emotion around this other than just, steven as you just mentioned sort of what they need to follow as part of policy, almost, as we see -- as we see the transition of the church. do you happen to know where this held bad is? does this look familiar to you at all this area. >> i believe it's inside the ground of castle gandolfo. there is an ancient rome man road that runs past castle gandolfo. that is the road that the apostle, including st. peter would have taken in the ancient days to come into rome. popes have been travelling this path for a very longtime.

jenna: just seeing the landing at castle gandolfo. 5:24 local time in italy. 11:24 here on the east coast and this is just for right now a temporary retirement site for the pope. he's he's going to be returning to the vatican we believe around april when the renovations for a small monastery that he will remain in will be done, then he'll be able to go become to the vatican. for right now this will be his home for the next several mont months. jon: the passengers on board we know that his personal secretary, george guesswein -- gonswein, excuse me is on board with him. we are not absolutely certain of the other people chosen to make this flight with the pope. george gonswein is on board.

we understand that the secretary will remain with him at castle gandolfo as the pope begins his retirement there. [bells ringing ] ] bells ringing

] jon: in announcing his intention to retire pope benedict simply said that the burdens of the office need to be born by a younger and more vigorous man, and you can see in the way he alights from the helicopter and even in his stance, that this pope well into his 80s is somewhat frail. the primary reason he says for his retirement, and for the meeting of the college of

cardinals, who will elect his successor, some time we expect in the next couple of weeks. jenna: one of the things that you might notice is that the pope is still wearing what he will traditionally wear as a pope, you see the cape that goes down to his elbow, also the ring is still on his finger, that ring that will be taken from him a little later today, we'll talk to father jonathan in a moment about that. he's also still wearing the red shoes. winds he will no longer wear the red shoes. the red shoes signify blood of martyrs in the church, that's why they are red. that's part of the significance. father jonathan, tell us a little bit -- this is a big change, obviously. we will see his last address to the world as pope, we will see it all live together, when does the next stage happen, the changing of the shoes, the changing of the dress? when does that all take place? >> well, you can bet that he'll be very happy to get out of

those shoes as any one of us would be, and, you know, he's not attached to the trappings. i know him, not to say that on some priests and bishops their popes might be attached to those things, it can happen, everyone is different. but pope benedict the xvi, that's not his style. his style is very much low key. but he recognizes that symbols matter, that they do mean something, and for example, the ring that you brought up, jenna, that ring is called the fisherman's ring, right, remember jesus who called st. peter and the disciples no longer to be fishermen but to be fisher of men. that ring that symbolizes his authority and his responsibility as pope, that will be taken from him, it will be smashed, in other words, it is no longer symbolizing authority because he does not have that authority any more. and the authority will be given over to the college of cardinals during this time between

papacies. so you can get that pope benedict the xvi at 8:00pm will probably go and have a very simple dinner east usually does at that time, and then he will begin a new phase of his life. things will be very quiet. the secretary will also be relieved. he's had a long eight years as well by his side, and they will begin a new phase of study, of prayer, and also of communication, of writing and communicating with the other cardinals and other people but in a very, very private way. way. jenna: a beautiful day in italy for this type of an event. we keep on mentioning that there is more than a billion catholics worldwide. there is more than 5 million catholics in the united states and obviously the pope is the leader of the catholic church but ashley is back on set with us as well, senior fellow with the catholic association. ashley, your thoughts not

only what it means for the catholic church but this is a religious leader recognized by such by many who are not catholic. i'm curious your thoughts what this transition means and what someone can take away from this moment if they're not catholic? >> sure, absolutely. a big part of the role that the pope plays is very ecumenical reaching out to different religions. i was reading in commentary magazine they were praising the efforts the eppope has done to reach out to the jewish community. i think he plays a very important role in that respect. one of the important things that pope benedict has done a wonderful job with, promoting religious freedom, not just for catholics but people of all faiths around the world. we live in a time where religious persecution is huge problem, not just for catholics but people of faith everywhere. he has done a real excellent job of spotlighting that issue. i think that it is important, that a big part of the role of the pope is to promote, to use his position of

authority and re -- respect with some people around the world to promote different causes of human rights and human dignity and that is what he has done an excellent job in doing. >> steven, your thoughts? >> i agree. to underline all that, the catholic church and pope don't promote just a set of policy initiatives or preferred issues and serious of rules and regulations. to underline all that is what ashley mentioned before. what we've seen in pope benedict and pay close attention, this man is tremendously in love with jesus christ and the church. all of what he does and all the what the pope does flows from that. i think one of the things this pope has done particularly well, this would be another part of his leg today -- legacy. he diagnosed part of the cultural and spiritual malaise that bee sets the west. i think that is big part of his teaching. i think that is something he will be remembered for. jenna: this is one stage as

we continue to watch the pope now. unfortunately we don't have a bigger view exactly which building he is entering here. it almost looks, steven, like a side entrance if you will into castel gandolfo. this goes back to the 1200s. it was built from a family in genoa. it was built to the protect against marauders on the countryside. it is very interesting history. if we could, let's listen to the bells. you can see the crowd, i believe right there, in the center of this town. let's just watch for a moment. steven, tell us, where are these people standing? >> there are in most italian small hill towns there is a small piazza, at one end of

the town is the papal castle and residence around the town. and things you find in a small italian towns. a couple church a matter of a few meters or yards down the road. the see the dome. you see the dome of the papal observatoris. you can see how narrow and thin the town is. on the left, i believe you can see the shores of lake albano. like i said, it is the rim of an ancient volcano. it is a peculiar shape of the town. there is a long high ground that falls off steeply and you see great views from all around. you see the papal flag, the vatican flag. there is the balcony where the pope will come out to address the crowds gathered in the square. jenna: i believe the camera will pan over to see how close he is really is. one of the perceptions of the church and we can all understand it, the church

and the vatican is often away from the people because you see on the television, st. peter's square and how grand some of that is in the area of the vatican in rome and it is remarkable, steven, to see how close he is is to the people town. >> right before we mentioned if you want a close up, more intimate setting to the see the holy father the castell gandolfo is the place to do it. most rome man known to see the city, to go out you side the city. the pope does the same. when he needs a break he will go to castell gandolfo. not unusual when the time of transition, when the papacy ends in a few minutes, or three hours now, 2 1/2 hours, that he chose castell gandolfo to come to be away from the city. though he will be able to see the vat -- vatican from

his window. jenna: in the limited italian i have, you can see the signs saying thank you to the pope. obviously a crowd that is ready to welcome him and bear witness to his final wave to the world as pope. as we mentioned a little while ago. we are referring to him as pope benedict because he is still pope at this time n a few hours, there was much debate what he would be called but he will be called his holiness benedict as he owners it this next stage which is really unchartered territory as we haven't seen a pope do this in hundreds and hundreds of years. jon: fascinating to see the change in the topography and the botany are with you the president -- where the pope will spend the next couple months of his retirement. rome, although it is a beautiful city, it is an old city and in many ways a polluted city. it has been cleaned up significantly over the last few years but, you know, diesel, smoke, smudged on

many of the walls of some of those grand old buildings in rome. castel gandolfo you can see just from the looks of it is a much more pristine environment. i was struck as we watched the motorcade climbing the hill up to the hilltop next to the lake there that the beauty of the trees and the greenerry all around there must certainly be, well, just would give one a sense of peace and serenity. it looks like an absolutely beautiful location, that little hilltop village where he will spend the next couple months of his retirement. jenna: ashley, as someone that is catholic we talked about what this means in general for the world and its many religions out there but as a catholic where do you draw your faith from today and how is it drawn from the church or from a figure like the pope? >> sure absolutely. i think, you know, catholics, catholicism has a very rich

tradition in a very rich intellectual tradition and that's certainly a big part what brought me into the faith was reading a lot. in fact pope benedict he is known for his intellectual prowess, and it was reading his speech at reagansburg and his bold defense of reason an reality in a world where those things are not appreciated anymore. i think most lay catholics, they get a lot of their faith more at the local level from their parish priest, just from their interactions with all the different aspects of the catholic church. you know the catholic church has so much to offer to the world in terms of its charitable contributions. so, in many different ways. jenna: let's listen for a moment here as the pope turns the corner. we believe he will come out on that balcony. this is what he sees we're seeing.

[cheers and applause] [cheers and applause] >> [inaudible]. [cheers and applause]

[speaking italian] [cheers and applause] >> [speaking italian] [cheers and applause] [speaking italian]

[cheers and applause] [speaking italian] [cheers and applause]

jon: and that apparently will be the last time that benedict is seen in public as pope. he will hold that office for about another two hours and 20 minutes. and then officially resign at 8:00 p.m. this evening rome time. that is 2:00 p.m. on the east coast. 11:00 a.m. on the west coast of the united states. you saw the crowds waving the vatican flag flags. i saw some italian flags. i saw signs written in german, his native tongue. father jonathan morris is able to translate a little bit what we heard from the pope there. father jonathan? >> jon, i'm moved personally. you know he just walked out without any papers, without any written documents, without anything that had to be passed by the secretary

of state or any other department of the vatican to make sure it was all okay. here it was. joseph ratzinger, pope benedict xvi, coming out to the balcony, and perhaps saying the last public words we will ever hear from him. what did he say? he said, i love you. he said i feel your support. he said, thank you for being here. and then in a very simple way, maybe the last words we'll hear from him, he said, [speaking italian] he said good night, good evening. he turned around and walked in. one of the beautiful signs written there in italian, that i saw in the crowd said, it said, benedict, your humility has made you bigger. and that was humility. there is no more pope benedict xvi speaking to us from balconies or around the world. he is now living as a monk.

jenna: father jonathan, even though i'm not able to see you here from washington, d.c., we're still taking in the sights of this square there. we can feel in your voice how moved you are by what has transpired over the last hour. just talk us through a little bit what you're feeling and the emotions that come to mind. >> well, maybe it's better that you don't see me in that, you know, all of us i think, who have known him, all of us who have taken on his dregs, recognize that -- his direction, as a father we would like him to continue. we would like him to continue to be 100% well. we would like him to be what he has been for us. i'm not speaking of him as a god or as some perfect person. you know, we don't believe he is infallable in terms of all of his decisions. in fact he hasn't even made any public infallable

statement that is a real misconception about a pope's infallability is all about. he is a man who is weak. i believe he is a holy man. he is a kind man. he is a man who made mistakes. he is a man who also felt the real pains of leadership. you know, can you imagine taking over an organization of 1.2 billion people, not having been trained as a manager. not having been trained as, you know, from wharton school of business, no. this was an academic, a man who dedicated his life to teaching and really as a pastor. and so here he has told us the best thing for the church right now is for us to put it into the hands of another person. if we have time, and if we don't, please tell me, but just one very personal and a very personal thing right now that is going through my mind. you remember in 2005 when

the sex abuse scandal was so strong, i was part of a religious order who was being led by a man who turned out to be a sociopath. it was a very famous case of father macio, who i knew personally as well. he has since passed but pope benedict xvi as head of the department that the oversaw all these abuse cases knew that because john paul the 2nd was very sick, he was not able to act. when pope benedict became pope within a month he publicly disciplined and removed this priest from public ministry. i bet pope benedict the 16th recognized in these times in the church we need a man who is able to be of sound body and mind who needs to be able to act quickly. i'm grateful to him for having made this act and was able to allow me to move on and be a part of archdiocese of new york right now. because after man of courage, we have people's lives truly

affected in a very personal way. he knows it is time for him to step down for the good of the church. jenna: and, father jonathan, quickly if we could now, is your feeling, your emotion, from watching the end of this pope's position, is it met with equal optimism and joy for who's next? who is next to come to fill this position? how do you, how do you feel about that? >> you know, i can't say i'm really joyful, i can't wait for the next one because i don't know who it is. there is some trepidation. what i believe we need a person that speaks clearly about the love of god and preaches the gospel unabashedly. i'm not sure who we're going to get. it could be just somebody reading off a script, not that reading off scripts is all bad. we need someone who will

take a new step and to say, now is the time to speak with valor and with courage, unafraid and to do it in a way that people can understand. not that everybody has to become catholic but, rather to speak the truth as an invitation and to allow people to respond to that each and everyone, according to their own conscience and their own path. jenna: father jonathan, great to have your invaluable insight and your experience as we take in this moment of history. still, jon, back in our studios in new york. we still have two hours where pope benedict is pope benedict before the final transition is made. jon: dusk is falling there on st. peter's square in the vatican as well as on castel gandolfo, the residence of the pope. the man who will be pope for another two hours and 15 minutes or some then the bells at the castel will chime. the doors will slam shut and he will have resigned the

papacy effective 8:00 p.m. tonight rome time. as dusk falls and the curtain falls on the papacy of benedict xvi we'll continue to watch any developments. we expect the pope will not be seen again in public today, not, really not anymore into his retirement. but we will con into keep an -- continue to keep an eye on all the developments from rome and castel gandolfo. "happening now" will be back in just a moment. would have ben

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that she acted in self-defense but have they gone too far with their questioning? our legal panel weighs in on that. the chairman of the house homeland security committee is demanding the answer on the release of hundreds of illegal immigrants. we hear the numbers are in the hundreds. he asked to find out how many we're talking about. texas republican michael mccaul will join us on set next hour. tourists are flocking to southwest florida to get a look at some of their favorite baseball players. that's right, red sox spring training is underway. can you tell we have someone from boston working on our team? the red sox, right. we'll look at the billion dollar preseason industry and some towns that hope to cash in. jon? jon: it is crunch time there on capitol hill in washington where jenna is as democrats and republicans try to stop a looming sequester. if no deal is reached, $85 billion in government spending cuts begin to take effect tomorrow. chief congressional correspondent mike emanuel live from the russell

rotunda in the capitol building. the senate, mike, is going to vote on a couple of plans today to i guess, change the nature of the sequester. does either one of them have a prayer of passing? >> reporter: short answer, no, jon. the democratic plan, according to the congressional budget office would raise the deficit by more than $7 billion. so that is not expected to go anywhere. the republican plan would give different government agencies more flexibility to administer the reductions. here's the reid reared on that. -- senate majority leader on that. >> republicans call the plan flexibility. call it what it is, punt. they're punting. as president obama said yesterday it would simply raise the question, quote, do i end funding that helps disabled children or poor children? do i close this naval shipyard or that one? it is not a solution. and even members of the senate republican caucus have questioned the wisdom of this proposal. >> reporter: to further explain what he is saying

there, there are republicans who don't love this proposal because they don't like the idea of giving the executive branch more power to move around money. jon? jon: yeah, so, we've got, what a few hours these cuts are ked scheduled to take effect. what are the republicans saying? >> republicans are saying essentially a lot of american families have to cut 2.4% of their personal budgets throughout the recession. so they feel like the, essentially this is not going to be a big deal. it is not going to be the end of the world. the number two senate republican predicts that these reductions will not crush our economy. >> let me repeat that in case people weren't listening. even when the spending cuts mandated by this sequestration, $85 billion in cuts, this administration will still have more money to spend this year than they did last year. hard to see how that would wreak devastation.

>> reporter: so we expect midnight to come and go and then these spending reductions will start to gradually kick in. as we've been talking about of course the president will have top four congressional leaders at the white house tomorrow. at this point it sound like that will be mostly an informational meeting. we're not expecting a huge break through at this meeting, jon. jon: or fisticuffs, we're not expecting fisticuffs to break out that one either, are we, mike? >> reporter: no but harry reid is boxer so you never know. jon: that is interesting. mike emanuel on capitol hill. jenna. jenna: there is a little name-calling as we've been covering, what was it weak sauce from harry reid and john boehner using other colorful language so. when they get together --. jon: get off of its mule? jenna: well-put, jon. just for our younger viewers. we'll continue to follow what is going on with sequestration. as mike was just mentioning, time is really ticking by. you have billions of spending cuts set to go into

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told you about yesterday. remember this 81-year-old store jewelly owner? what was he thinking when he chased them down. we're going to hear from him. it's all "happening now." ♪ jenna: well, it is the final countdown, they say. the sequester deadline just 12 hours away as we're at 12 noon here on the east coast. without a last second deal, those automatic spending cuts will start kicking in. some say maybe it won't be that bad. others think differently. welcome to a brand new hour of "happening now," i'm jenna lee. jon: i'm jon scott. the white house now seems to be backing away from those dramatic predictions of doom and room in about the immediate effects of the sequester. this after days of dire warnings from a parade of cabinet secretaries telling us about long airport lines, reduced law enforcement and pink slips for teachers. but the strategy to blame congressional republicans for

any and all consequences seems to be firmly in place. "the new york times" today saying, quote: white house strategists say they believe that a constant drip of bad news will emerge in congressional districts across the country in the weeks ahead generating negative headlines and, they hope, putting republicans on the defensive for their refusal to raise taxes. and here's white house spokesman jay carney yesterday. >> we remain hopeful that congressional leaders, republicans, will understand the need to come together and support balance. again, the choice that republicans would be making if they don't agree to that is a choice between up to 750,000 people losing their jobs on the one hand and asking that some special interest tax loopholes be closed on the other. i don't think that's a choice that seems like a hard one to most americans. unfortunately, it seems like a difficult one for republicans. jon: well, as for the republican

strategy, they are hitting the president for what they call a long campaign to scare americans. here's the speaker of the house, john boehner. >> the administration's trying to play games, play games with the american people, scare the american people. this is not, this is not leadership. >> you just accused the white house of fear mongering. >> listen, they're out there making a lot of noise. what they really ought to be doing is coming up to the hill and working with the senate democrats to pass a bill that can replace the sequester and begin to deal with our long-term spending problem. jon: let's bring in karl rove, former senior adviser and deputy chief of staff to president george w. bush, also a fox news contributor and a very good number cruncher. we just heard jay carney saying that the president wants balance. in his view, what is balance, karlsome. >> good question, because he's never laid out a plan. i thought it was interesting last sunday the administration sent out spokesmen who repeated

the same talking points that the president presented a precise, specific, detailed plan to solve the sequester problem in a balanced fashion. but the president has never laid out such a measure. so we really don't know. i think the president has been content to this point in raising these concerns about the impact of the sequester. he was happy to have secretary of transportation ray lahood go out and say 5,000 air traffic controllers are going to have to be furloughed. the interior secretary salazar says i'm going to have to close all the national park campgrounds. the homeland security secretary, janet napolitano, says i'm going to have to furlough 5,000 border patrol agents. so they've been happy to this point to say that, but there are two problems with this. the first one is that that the sequester is absolutely, is a small percentage, $85 billion, out of a nearly $3.6 trillion budget. after the sequester, the federal budget -- according to the cbo -- will be roughly 3.553,

$3,553,000,000,000. that's more than last year which was $3,538,000,000,000. so the federal government's still going to be spending more money this fiscal year than the previous fiscal year. and you can't tell the ordinary american that spending more money year than we did last year means the country is going to be materially less protected at the border, that our campgrounds need to be closed, we need to furlough all those air traffic controllers. the other thing that's problematic is this: we're wasting a lot of money. there was a poll in january by reason magazine, they said to the americans, give us a number. how much out of every federal dollar do you think is wasted, and the average was 50 cents out of every dollar that washington spends was wasted. now, if president obama does go cut muscle, things that are important, voters are going to be looking at him saying, mr. president, you could have cut fat. what about those travel budgets? what about the programs that don't work? what about the scandal-ridden or

fraud-ridden programs? why aren't you doing that rather than cutting the muscle? jon: but clearly the white house gambling or believing that when all is said and done, the american people are going to blame congress for any ill effects that come from the sequester cuts. >> right. but it's a big bet. and it could turn out badly. i think the republicans ought to take an affirmative step and call the president's bluff. the house republicans ought to, in my opinion, pass legislation that makes clear the president has the authority inside these agencies not to cut every activity across the board, but to cut less essential programs more and important programs less. and they ought to give this flexibility to the president and then use the power under article i, section 9 of the constitution, the power of the purse it's called, and call up cabinet secretaries who are playing funny games. if you have secretary of transportation lahood

furloughing 5,000 air traffic controllers, summon him before the house transportation committee and say, wait a minute, why didn't you start with the $72 million in subsidies you're giving to sight-seeing trains in alaska or the $22 million to purchase trolleys for a resort in missouri or the $1.1 million you spent in sidewalks to nowhere in florida? if the interior secretary says we're closing all the campgrounds, say why don't you make some more money by taking those hundreds of thousands of acres of shale gas that you've declared off limits for development in the rocky mountain west and put them up for auction and get the money to cover the bill for the campgrounds? so the power of the purse, the oversight for congress could be a powerful tool to help point out you had alternatives to cut muscle. you could have cut fat. jon: and that appears to be why republicans have decided to just let these sequester cuts go ahead. karl rove, always good to hear from you. thank you. >> thank you, jon. jenna: for days now we've heard

white house cabinet secretaries making dire predictions about what will happen if cuts kick in; flight cancellations, school days canceled, teachers furloughed or laid off potentially. but the administration now appears to be backing off any implication that much of that will happen right away. so what's the deal with these cuts? peter barnes at the fox business network joins us now. peter? >> reporter: hey, jenna. the white house is carefully wording some of these dire warnings. it says in its sequester fact sheet, in fact, that, for example, the jobs of 10,000 teachers would be put at risk by a sequester. 7200 special education teachers and aides and staff could be cut. no one really knows for sure until tomorrow when the president has to order more detailed spending reductions. yesterday reporters pressed the education secretary for when teacher pink slips will actually start to fly and how bad it will really get.

>> hasn't happened yet, it really has to do with union notification. so most of that stuff will start to happen in, over the course of march and april. um, there are a couple of -- one i know of in west virginia that has actually already issued notices just because they have an earlier notification date. >> reporter: but "the washington post" is reporting this morning that, in fact, that school district in west virginia is sending transfer notices to about a hundred teachers in response to that change in -- a change in federal spending that is unrelated to the sequester. arne duncan adding yesterday, quote: whether it's all sequester related, i don't know. one research shop, isi group, says today of the overall sequester cuts, quote: many ordinary americans will not notice a difference at all, and many won't notice a difference for months. jenna? jenna: all right. peter barnes, thank you. jon: turning our attention to a big trial underway, the state's cross-examination set to resume

for a fifth day in the jodi arias murder case. she claims self-defense in the stabbing and shooting death of her boyfriend, travis alexander. lead prosecutor juan martinez has been hammering away at arias' many different versions of whatyesterday picking apart e glaring contradictions in how arias has described her relationship with alexander. listen. >> you were talking in very fond terms about that experience in this clip that we just played, weren't you? >> yes. >> and it was because it was fun, right? >> yes. >> and it was something that you enjoyed, right? >> yes. >> so when you tell us that you felt like a prostitute, it really does, it seems to be contradicted by what's on exhibit 490, right? >> not if you understand why i said that. jon: adam houseley is life from our los angeles -- live from our los angeles newsroom with more on this case. adam? >> reporter: yeah, jon, for anybody who has interest in

court cases, this is one that just captivates you. we started out yesterday with testimony that's too risque for television, then it went to more tedious testimony and ended up with kind of some fascinating interaction between the prosecutor and jodi arias. thirteen days, here momentarily will be the 13th day he's on the stand. finally at the end of the day yesterday, they got into the day that jodi jodi arias killed tras alexander. the prosecutor is trying to show premeditation and trying to suggest that arias stole a gun from her grandparents and took it to arizona to kill him. however, arias says he -- [inaudible] >> got on the phone, and you said, no, mr. alexander didn't have any weapons or any guns. you said that specifically, right? >> yes. >> and now you come in and you tell us that, yes, he does have guns. right? >> at least one that i -- yeah.

>> reporter: yeah, once again the prosecutor trying to show that she may have brought a weapon there and, again, she inist is thes that he had a gun in his possession in his closet even though she had said for a number of interviews and even on television interviews that he had never had a weapon as far as she knew, and all of his friends said he had never owned a gun. it's very simple, jon. she says, jodi arias, in all the stories she's given over the course of a couple of years whether it be on television or her own journal are basically all lies, and now in front of this courtroom she's telling the truth. the prosecutor's once genre minding of that and, i have to tell you that, it is extremely aggressive at times. the prosecutor goes after her consistently on every single answer, basically picking apart every one of her answers showing that she's lied before, so why now is she all of a sudden telling the truth? jon? jon: but the question is, is it too aggressive? we'll get into that with our legal panel a little later on. >> reporter: right. jon: adam houseley, thank you. >> reporter: all right. jenna: well, a new debate over

welfare to work. seventeen years after president clinton signed the bill into law, critics arguing that waivers will increase government dependency. is that the case? we're going to report, you can decide. also, growing outrage after a decision to release thousands of illegal immigrants from detention centers across this country. today there's some new calls for answers. texas republican michael mccall joins us live. when you have diabetes... your doctor will say get smart about your weight. i tried weight loss plans... but their shakes aren't always made for people with diabetes. that's why there's glucerna hunger smart shakes. they have carb steady, with carbs that digest slowly to help minimize blood sugar spikes. and they have six grams of sugars. with fifteen grams of protein to help manage hunger... look who's getting smart about her weight. [ male announcer ] glucerna hunger smart. a smart way to help manage hunger and diabetes. you don't decide when vegetables reach the peak of perfection.

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at 100 calories or less, there are plenty of reasons people are saying "progress-oh!" share your progress-oh! story on facebook. jenna: a hearing today in our nation's capital on the administration's proposed waiver of work requirements for welfare recipients. critics now concerned if the waivers are approved, it would result in less work and more government dependence. but will it really? doug mckelway's live in washington with more. doug? >> reporter: hi, jenna. people disagree with the idea that welfare reform passed in 1996 by the republican-controlled congress and signed by president clinton was a huge success. the number of people on welfare

dropped from 12.2 million to 4.5 million in a did. president clinton wrote an op-ed in "the new york times" back then. it said, quote: >> r eporter: but on july 2th last summer, the obama administration's department of health and human services dropped the cornerstone of that reform, the requirement that welfare recipients seek work. hhs did so without the required approval of congress. >> this is a major expansion of executive authority. if it's legal, it's because of quite a loophole -- it's the teensiest little loophole that they are driving a truck through. >> reporter: why did the administration do it? one of the nation's leading scholars on welfare says it boils down to an argument between two schools of thought; those who think that welfare

recipients should seek work versus those who lost that 19 t 6 battle, the ones who think welfare recipients should get job training. again, listen. >> the people who are on the losing end of that argument are, in large measure, in the administration. >> reporter: and does job training work for those on welfare? one witness at today's hearing offered this anecdote. >> i believe it's the case that before you became commissioner in new york one-half of the women at the city college were on welfare. >> yes, that's actually true, and beyond that they didn't graduate. >> reporter: last september the house passed a resolution to repeal that work waiver, but the senate did not act on it, so both bodies are trying to resurrect the appeal in this present congress. jenna? jenna: more on that story as we get it, doug. thank you.

jon: we've told you about this controversy, immigration officials releasing hundreds of illegal immigrants ahead of the looming budget cuts. congressman michael mccall joins us live. also, baseball players taking the field in sunny florida for a little preseason action. that looks fun, doesn't it? why towns are spending millions to bring teams to their little slice of paradise. hello?

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>> hi, how are you? >> reporter: a billion dollar a year industry with fans coming to florida from across the nation. >> great park, by the way. >> reporter: paying for something not easy to find today, intimacy in professional sports.

>> dad took us when we were young, and i'm bringing him now. >> reporter: lee county is home to the boston red sox and the minnesota twins. government studies estimate fans spend $50 million a year in the local economy. >> souvenir programs! >> reporter: no surprise, there is a wider competition for towns hoping to host a major league team. >> there are more communities that want to host spring training than there are major league baseball teams. the teams can ask for the moon, and there's going to be a community that gives it to them. >> reporter: the battle goes beyond florida. in recent years arizona has poached away 15 teams. now florida's governor says the state needs a new strategy to prevent further losses. jon, back to you. jon: all right. steve harrigan, watch out. don't get hit by a foul ball there with your back to the home plate, okay? thank you, steve. jenna: always caring about our correspondents, jon. i know they appreciate that very much. you know, growing outrage is happening over a controversial

decision apparently by the administration, actually, it's not by the administration. that's an important point. it's actually by the department of homeland security to start releasing detained illegal immigrants. the move said to be in anticipation of looming federal budget cuts, more than 300 illegals in arizona have already been let go, and governor jan brewer there is not happy. >> this is just unexplainable, unbelievable, and it's appalling. the bottom line is that what about the respect for the law-abiding citizens, and who is running this country? you know, it's blame this person, blame that person, duck, cover. the american people, neil, are fed up. jenna: well, meanwhile, the chair of the house homeland security committee is asking why this is happening and wants answers on it. texas republican michael mccall is the author of a letter that he wrote to i.c.e. and chair of the house homeland security committee. congressman, nice to have you in person -- >> thanks for having me, jenna. jenna: we've heard different

numbers. we've heard hundreds have been released, thousands have been released, what are we talking about here? how many? >> we really don't know. we know hundreds have been releaseed. i sent a letter to director morton demanding answers in terms of how many people have been released, what is the background, what is this policy that you're doing that you didn't notify congress about and, you know, what is the criminal backgrounds? we're hearing that some of these people released have violent criminal backgrounds. jenna: we're hearing from the white house -- jay carney spoke about this yesterday -- saying that the white house has no input on this plan, this is up to the department to make that decision. what do you think about that? >> it's very interesting how napolitano announces this at the white house, tries to tie it to sequestration, a scare tactic that they've been doing all week long -- jenna: you don't think it's tied to sequestration? >> i think that she's tried to. i think this whole thing backfired on the white house, and then you saw them running for cover, and they throw the secretary under the bus and say, oh, we had nothing to do with this, this is all i.c.e. and the secretary of dhs. jenna: what would be their

motivation to really saying people if it's not due to budget cuts from sequestration? >> well, i think, you know, for the past year they have had this plan to start releasing these detainees, in their view, to save money. but i think it's a weak immigration policy is what it is. and they're using sequestration as sort of a guise, if you will, an excuse to do this, to effectuate that policy. we kind of caught them red-handed on it. i sent my director to -- my letter to director morton, and then he saw them all running for cover. jenna: so you don't have a response to to the letter so fa, but do you have evidence this is their plan? you say this is your gut feeling, but any evidence you can point to? >> we know they had a director looking at doing this as far as a year ago. so it's ironic that napolitano tries to tie this to sequestration. again, the sky's falling. now we're going to have to release illegal aliens. then again i think that strategy totally backfired on them. we called them out on it, and

it's a dangerous and reckless policy to release potentially violent criminal offenders into the general population. jenna: we need more information on this, obviously, how many, who exactly is being released. we had karl rove join us at the top of the hour, and he said something that republicans should consider doing is giving the power to the president in sequestration to have some ownership to the cuts and how they're made. right now as we just talked about the white house says, well, we don't have any ownership of these cuts because it the departments. what do you think about that? should that be something you all consider so that the president has a role in what cuts are being made and how? >> look, we want smarter cuts, but let's be honest, this is the president's idea. he came out with this idea. and you can't balance a budget if all you're going to talk about are discretionary spending. that's one-quarter of the budget. we need to talk about the three-quarters of the budget, which is entitlement reform. and without that adult conversation in the room, we're never going to get this thing done. and if the president won't even come to the congress and talk to us, he's running around on a

road show politicking rather than governing. jenna: let me ask you this though. a lot of our viewers are hearing about their meat not being inspected, long lines at the airport, teachers being laid off, illegal immigrants being let out. at the same time, what we're hearing is that lawmakers are going home tonight, tomorrow, and we don't know what to think. what's really going on here? is this just an opportunity for politicians to be political in sequester, or do you think that the sequestration cuts are really going to have this effect that we're all hearing about? >> i don't think this thing's probably going to go forward. i know leadership's meeting with the white house tomorrow. i'm not optimistic about that. but the sky's not going to fall. the cuts will probably take place. we're going to be okay. it's a lot of hype by the administration, scare tactics to blame house republicans -- jenna: and you don't think that the house republicans should take any action from this point on to try to prevent this or make some sort of compromise?

>> well, you know, we have. we passed two bills to replace sequestration. the senate has done nothing, the president didn't respond to it, the boehner tried to negotiate something with the president of the united states. but, again, he won't talk about entitlement reform. you can't get this done unless you have cuts in discretionary but also mandatory spending cuts x. that's where -- and that's where, i think, quite honestly boehner will tell you he got rolled by the president and the white house. he's not going to do it again. jenna: will you let us know when you get a letter about the specifics -- >> i sure will. and i plan to sit down and meet with director morton personally, and i think the american people deserve answer toss what i think is a return to the catch and release policy that we ended many years ago. jenna: a pleasure to have you on with us. thank you for being on today. jon: a salute for a true american hero. the final good-bye for general norman schwarzkopf. the man who led american troops to victory in the first gulf war and so much more. we will take you live to west

point. plus, jodi arias testifying in her own defense at her capital murder trial. with the prosecutor hammering away at her stories, why his style is coming under scrutiny. is it working? our legal panel debates. none of us would want to be told we can't marry the pern we

love. as americanswe believe in freedom. that's what i fought for as a marine, and that's what we believe in as republicans. freedom means freedom for everyone. i didn't use to understand the importance of same-sex marriage, but after learning my brother was gay i wanted the same rights for him. he was the best man at my wedding and i want to be the best man at his. it's only fair that calvin should have the freedom to marry the person he loves, too. it's time for marriage.

jon: the state's cross-examination of jodi arias set to the resume for a fifth day in her murder trial. the lead prosecutor, juan martinez, known for a take no prisoners style, has been

hammering away at arias's many different versions what happened. could his tough approach backfire before the jury? take a look at the snippet. >> you say you're not lying here, that what you're telling us is the truth, right? >> yes. >> but you are telling us when you spoke with the detective, this that wasn't true, correct, whatever you did say you told him? >> anything, some things were not true. most things. >> most things, were true, is that what you're saying. >> some things were not true. >> did you lie to the detective yes or no? >> yes. >> did you lie to him on two occasions? >> more than two, yes. >> to date, lie to them today? >> yes. >> did you lie to 48 hours? >> yes. >> did you lie to people of utah? >> yes. >> did you lie to daniel freeman? >> yes. to everyone. >> you lied to a lot of people, but saying because you're sitting here in this courtroom there has been for lack of a better term a conversion and you're now telling the truth, right? >> for lack of a better term,

yes. jon: that is how it's been going. the testimony is back underway now. susan constantine is a jury consultant. esther spanish is a frred tecce, former criminal prosecutor. welcome to each of you. this is mostly male jury. how do you think this tile of mr. martinez is going to fly with those members of the jury? >> well, overall we're looking at seven, or 11 male jurors and then the remaining are females. four of those are alternates. it is really more how those jurors except and take in information. even if they were males, if they tend to be more kenistic, most men are not as feeling. type-a personalities absolutely. then again this overall, bombardment over time, i think can be very ineffective if it is used consistent tlult without creating rythym and pace in

his delivery. jon: esther, i noted even just that exchange he had with her a moment ago we played is a little more sedate than he was in the early goinging. >> that was the --. jon: this is for esther. >> go ahead. >> thank you. they're arguing over semantics, most, some, a few, numerous. the clip you played was pretty sedate. but i have heard examples and it's enough already. you don't have to make the point 100 times. she admitted she lied. move onto something else. you don't have to argue that she lied numerous times or a few times. it means the same thing. it seems like mr. martinez is trying to make sure she says puppy, instead of small dog. in the end does it really matter? he made his point. i think it is coming off as he is trying to bully her. if you find anybody, any jurors who have sympathy for her being beaten down by him, that only helps her. it helps her case. she is looking at the death penalty.

if she can establish some type of rapport, even if she can, elicit some sympathy from a juror, to her predictment right there, then it does not help the prosecution, even though the prosecution has all the facts on their side. they don't need to beat her up. >> you know what? esther, you're not going to get sympathy for a woman who slice ad guy 27 times, shot him in the head and darn near decapitated him and repeatedly lied about it. i think what martinez is doing, he is going toe-to-toe. in closing argument, he which say ladies and gentlemen of the jury, this woman's entire defense which turns solely on her testimony that she butcher canned this man because he made her do things she didn't want to do. you saw her stand with me, toe-to-toe, day in, day out, question by question, by question. your jury consultant, is right, jon, people filter information differently. my experience they filter information predicate the on

predisposition and life experience. my example you go to chinese restaurant and get a foreign cookie. that says you go away for a long time. if you're positive person you go to tahiti and drink from coconuts. if you're negative, you will go to prison. they will filter information not who they are not martin's style. we love to talk about it and jurors take the oath very seriously and that's how they filter information. jon: fred brought up the fact that he has been telling the jury the victim coerced her into all the sex acts and she wasn't really comfortable with them. and yet martinez did get her to admit she enjoyed the rainchy sex that they shared. that has got to work against a lot of her arguments. >> i agree. he is just going too far. he has been effective to get her to say that she lied. frankly she is readily admitted she lied to everyone and expects the jury to believe that now she

is telling the truth? i don't think anyone believes she is telling the truth. the problem by constantly attacking her, the jurors might feel some level of sympathy. i agree. she did, i don't know. if she did it or not but i believe the facts are --, it is the prosecutor's case to lose, not jodi arias's case to win. >> i agreed. she needs to be careful. jon: susan, you're our jury expert here. talk about fred's point. fred is saying essentially the two are boxers in a ring. the prosecutor is going after her hard and she is punching right back. how does that play with the jury? >> it is showing jodi arias can stand on her own. i think it is very effective there. he has opinion bushing her and pushing her and she is not the little wall flower she is describing herself. instead of going to the beginning to end, jody remembers everything and taking cognitive report going backwards to forward

and jumping around and scrambling her mind up. this is where we're starting to see the attitude with jodi arias been tremendously has been beneficial for the state. jon: go ahead, fred. >> it's been very effective she testified on direct she remembered nothing about killing him. he caught her slipping up, very subtle but i saw it. when you pulled her, pulled his body in the shower, right. that's where i pulled it. she said she had forgotten about it. when you deal with people that are pathologic you have to jump around. i understand about this guy, in closing argument he will pull all this together. jon: there is also the fact of the gun. his friends say he didn't keep a gun at his house. she says it was in the closet. her grandparents had a gun of the same caliber that was stolen from them just in the weeks ahead of this killing. a lot of questions here. esther, one last crack at how it is all going to come together. >> well, you know, i think he just, march teends already made his case.

i just don't know why he needs to keep going at it. he has gotten the facts to use in closing argument. i think longer she stays on the stand the more likely for one juror to feel bad for her. jon: that is all it takes. >> he does need to end it. he needs to end it. jon: with 11 men on the jury i'm not sure that anybody will be feeling particularly bad for her but we'll see. a lot of testimony and closing arguments to come. thanks to each of you for joining us today. >> thanks for having me. >> thank you. jon: all right. jenna: believe it or not there is some new talk about bridging the gap between both parties as the clock ticks towards this automatic spending cuts that are said to kick in by midnight. alaska senator mark begich joins us in three minutes. he has actually written a letter that takes on republicans, democrats and the president all together. we'll ask him who he thinks should step up to the plate. also a store owner in his 80s taking on two

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act right now. call the number on your screen now! jenna: well the truth is as it stands right now it is looking less like we're going to see a deal to head of the sequester and more like the automatic spending cuts we're talking so much about will start kicking in at midnight. gerry seib of "the wall street journal" wrote this just recently saying quote, the most stunning aspect of the latest budget impasse nobody is really scurrying around to prevent it. here is a thought who could perhaps do that. a group of younger, moderate democrats in the washington badly needs right now are people to serve as a bridge between two the parties. moderate and conservative democrats often have formedded these bridges between the parties. gerry seib goes on and identifies six senator as lawmakers who could be part of that bridge. one of them, joins us now.

alaska senator, mark begich. so, senator, are you the one? can you make this bridge happen, a compromise between both sides? >> i don't know if i can be the one but i'll tell you there are folks like myself and i think that article really laid it out, the new guys don't look at past traditions or who said what to who 10 years ago or 15 years ago and still holding grudges we're about trying to get stuff done. there is lot of chatter behind the scenes with folks on both sides. obviously a group of us moderate democrats trying to figure out there is an avenue here. jenna: tell us about that, senator. hearing some chatter in the background we like to hear more about that. what does that, what shape is that taking? >> well, first off, people come to the conclusion that friday we'll have the automatic budget cuts that will start slowly unraveling. by god, monday, it is all going to cave in, that's not what is going to happen.

it will be a slow unraveling that gives some air as we get to the end of the month to deal with the continuing resolution. i think there is some discussion, i think there is not a bad discussion, to take the appropriations that have been done already for 2013, tighten them up a little bit more. bring those forward and another continuing resolution, make that part of the closer for the 2013 budget. get that off the table because as you know, we do a cr, a continuing resolution we'll be funding things we shouldn't be funding like the shuttle program that doesn't exist anymore. so there's a lot of discussion saying let's try at that. jenna: so, senator, that is interesting to hear there are some discussions still ongoing. you recently wrote a letter that criticized not only your fellow democrats -- >> everybody. jenna: and republicans and the president. you really got everybody all in there. you missed the media. we'll take blame where we should. in a compromise situation though, somebody has to be the first one to come forward. you know the first one to make that offering. >> right. jenna: gerry seib said it is

moderate democrats like yourself. who do you think who needs for lack of a better term, blink first on this? >> well it's a good question because everyone wants to point at everybody, basically. my view is, i'm happy as a individual senator to step out. i said all along, it has to be a three-pronged approach on the budget. i have to cut the budget. i will give you a shopping list of areas. we have to deal with revenues. tax reform is great revenue. the third is, we have to still invest in this country and education, infrastructure. i keep saying this and keep telling folks, let's sit down, put it on the table and you know what, it will be a tough battle. because guess what, we have to make some decisions and it will not be comfortable. and i'm okay --. jenna: sorry to interrupt. we'll have to run in a second but why isn't that working? a lot of viewers might be thinking well, that sound pretty good so why isn't it working? >> what you're seeing a slow transition. a few new people like myself are not afraid of votes.

if i take the vote i will be tortured in the next election. you know what? they will say it any way and let's get on the show and figure this out. a lot of us are trying to push that up. i do believe at the end of the day for example, we'll have a budget on the floor before we go on the next spring break period at end. march. we'll deal with that. that will be the battleground that will start this discussion. i've been one of those encouraging the leadership, let's just get the budget on the floor. let's debate it. it will be tough but we will get it done and we'll have a course and some certainty. i think you will see, 2 1/2 weeks, that may be the pivot point, we'll have the budget on the floor and everyone will throw their ideas. we'll have a tug-of-war. at end of the day you folks in the media will have great opportunity to cover us for all kind of things. jenna: it takes some courage to do that. we look forward to talking to you over the next several weeks as it comes together. that is the indication. a next couple weeks that is where the real big battle is. nice to see you. thanks for joining us. >> thank you very much. jon: well the sequestration,

senator begich was talking about is hours away now. famed journalist bob woodward finds himself in the middle of this battle with his claim that the white house threatened him over his reporting on the cuts. the latest on that controversy. a final sendoff for an american hero, retired general norman schwarzkopf. the military legend who led u.s. troops in operation desert storm, a live report from west point coming up. [ male announcer ] this is the opposite of subliminal advertising...

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jon: right now a memorial is underway for an american hero. the leader of "operation desert storm", general norman schwarzkopf. the decorated veteran passed away in december. today loved ones and admirers are remembering the man known as storm inch

norman. he was known for dedication to his country. we have more from the military academy at woes point, new york. rick? >> reporter: a number of friend and family and dignitaries are in the cadet chapel where the life of general norman schwarzkopf is being remembered this hour. the dignitaries include former vice president dick cheney the second of tear of defense during the war. colin powell, retired four-star general chairman. joint chiefs a and his daughter and wife. who remember norman tough, no-nonsense, frank speaking leader who is described as john wayne swagger and growl like a grizzly. he led troops during the invasion of gred made today and command the operation desert storm and ended ground war in iraq in four days. he spoke powerfully at root evironment ceremony in 1991.

>> no matter how eloquent the orator, no matter how prolific the poet, the no matter how lyrical the songwriter, no words can ever capture the emotions that go through a person's heart when he stands for the last time and hear's the national anthem and salutes the american flag representing the country that he has gladly, proudly, served for the last 35 years. >> reporter: there will be a smaller ceremony here in the west point cemetery this afternoon. the general's grave, very close to his father's who was also a west point graduate. jon? jon: gone at 78. gone too soon. rick leventhal, thank you. and we'll be right back.